Podcast episode 11 - 2 of Swords and The Tower of COVID-19 (includes full transcript)

2 of Swords card from the Rider Waite Tarot deck. A woman wearing a white nightdress sits on a stone seat. Her back is to the ocean and in her hands she holds two swords crossed across her chest. She wears a blindfold and there is a new moon in the sky.

"The Gift of the Two of Swords is that you can now see things as they are instead of being blinded or distracted by what people want you to see. Your inner knowing perceives the truth. We come again to discernment. The Gift that people may come out of this situation with is the Gift of discernment, and the Gift of trusting. Trusting in themselves, being able to tell truth from false, or things that will help them, from things that will hurt them." 

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 Transcription begins
 
Allison:  Welcome to the TarotCraft podcast. I’m Allison Jean, a Tarot enthusiast from Australia. Please join me on this journey into the mystic depths of Tarot and divination. Today’s guest on the TarotCraft podcast is Jacqueline May of The Ghost Writer Oz. As well as being a Tarot enthusiast, she is a writer, artist and paranormal investigator. Jacquie, thanks for coming onto the TarotCraft Podcast. We're going to talk about the Two of Swords, today. How are you, what are you doing, and how are you spending this COVID-19 shutdown time?

Jacqueline:  I'm incredibly lucky to be working. Both my husband and I are working. He works for a medical company, so he's essential and I work in IT, so of course, I'm essential. I know we mentioned this when we were talking before - it's like everything has accelerated to a million miles an hour but at the same time stopped, or frozen.

Allison: It's like being in a time warp, or some kind of vortex that's going a million miles an hour, but it's not. Nothing's moving.

Jacqueline: Yes, and it's incredibly exhausting lately. You can see it around in the world, as well. Everyone is tired. Everyone is tired because they're stressed. Everyone's tired because they're over anxious. Everyone is tired because they're emotional. There's a lot of tiredness going around.

Allison: Yes, definitely. Especially people who are empathic, or are spiritual workers, psychic readers, things like that. They’re picking up on the energy of the world and every single person in the world is affected by this, or potentially affected by this.  It's just an extraordinary time. I'm really just beside myself. I don't have any words. I'm not one of these people who are like, "I'm going to write my book, and I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that, and I'm going to start a side hustle, and I'm going to do Zoom yoga." Are you kidding me? I'm just going to eat chips.

Jacqueline: Yes. I'm having a hard enough time trying to just keep up with what is expected, but at the same time, it's so surreal. Everything. You seem like you're so removed from everything, but everything's still going on around you.

Allison:  Anyway, so tell us just a little bit about you because we met through the paranormal investigation world. I know that you write, and you lead paranormal investigations, and ghost hunts. Tell us a little bit about that. 

Jacqueline: So, in the time that I'm not working I'm either out with APPI Ghost Hunts and Tours, helping run paranormal investigations, ghost tours, sleepovers or we do some events, we do some expos. We do some educational events, we've done bootcamps and things. That was my initial foray into things that are not normal. It introduced me to things like Tarot and psychic mediumship, and all sorts of other interesting things, but it's mainly work and paranormal investigation.

Allison:  Today we are talking about the Two of Swords, and the card that I'm looking at and working with is from the Rider-Waite deck. So, I'm just going to describe the card for anybody who can't see the card, or they don't have it handy.  So, what we have is a figure seated on what looks like a stone bench. The figure is -  I would say they're probably female presenting. Actually, I don't really go too much into gender with cards because I think that it’s talking about an expression of energy rather than what's in your underpants. Okay?

Jacqueline:  Yes.

Allison:  This figure to me has always been like a female sort of figure, and they're wearing like a long white robe which looks a little bit like a nightdress. Yellow shoes. They've got a blindfold on, they've got brown hair, and at the chest, sort of at the level of the heart, each hand is holding a sword, and the arms are crossed at the wrist.

 The figure is seated. Now one thing, with the Rider-Waite cards, is some of the cards look like the figures are standing on a stage, and the Two of Swords is one of those. You can see there's like a smooth platform, or path, at the front. Then just behind that there's like a little double line. Pamela Coleman Smith, who was the illustrator of these cards, worked in theatre. She was a set designer, a costume designer. So, she's bought some aspects of the theatre into these cards. Maybe I'll do a whole podcast on the meaning of the stage cards at some point but it's worth noting that this is one of the stage cards, so that's something to keep in mind.

 Behind the figure we've got a blue sky and a blue ocean. The ocean is very, very calm. There's some little outcroppings of rocks, and we can see across in the distance, sort of at the halfway point of the card, we see what looks like the land, perhaps from the other side of a bay.

 One of the things that really strikes me about this card is that there's a moon, so it's night. It's nighttime. The figure looks like they could be wearing like a night dress. The eyes are covered. When eyes are closed, or when there's a blindfold, that means attention has turned within. We've got that calm ocean behind. We know that water relates to emotions. So, it also brings some emotion into this Swords card. With Swords, it's usually about thoughts, fears, worries, things you’re planning, things that happen in your head.

But, we've got Cupstoo from the way the water features really strongly in this card as well. This feels to me like almost a dream scape, like the figure has gone within perhaps, in sleep, or in meditation. They're protected. They've got those swords that they're protecting themselves with while they're in this sort of deeper unconscious or subconscious state. What do you think, Jacq?

Jacqueline:  It's interesting, because when I first saw this particular sword card the very, very first thing that has always struck me is that the crossed arms resemble death, or rest. So, it's interesting that, when you said that introspection and just rest. The idea of the hands over the chest struck me the most because when it pops up in my deck I think it's important the way that they put their arms across the chest. Why the chest? Why not the stomach? Why not have them resting down below? Why do we have the wrists crossed in front of the heart? The crossing of the swords themselves are not an aggressive cross. It's like they're resting, or at the ready for something.

Allison:  Yes. Like you said, that's like the meditation in the Death posture, with the arms crossed across the chest, the eyes closed. That is the Death posture. One reason that it was really timely to do this card - I'm a couple of weeks behind in my podcast because of the whole COVID-19 thing, and I'm exhausted - but, it really struck me that this is a card for this time What do you do? Not everybody's going to start an online business, or build an extension on the house, or something like that. I think if this is advice for the times that we're in, I think that advice is to rest, just rest. Attend to your inner life, attend to your emotions so that you're able to create some calmness, and quiet in your emotions because it's easy to get really caught up, and spiral out of control.

Jacqueline: Yes, like the idea of separation. One of the things that I've always loved when I've read some of your posts about the stage cards is that they seem by being on a stage that  they're removed from "the real world."  A fun little side fact: when you're communicating with someone and you want to be open with them, the idea is that you're meant to keep your arms uncrossed and keep everything away from your chest, because you're being openhearted. Here there are two such overt signs of being separated from something, but also holding your chest closed. So, removing yourself from a situation in order to focus on what is within, or what is separated from the outside, as well.

Allison: Yes, and I think if you want to get literal about how to interpret the card, the coronavirus affects your lungs, right? So, they’re protecting their lungs.  Another thing that popped into my head. This figure is an isolated figure. There's nobody there. They're not looking for anyone. They're just on their own, in their own space, and within their own psyche, and they're protecting the vulnerable part of themselves. Your heart, and your lungs are vulnerable. If they're not working, you're not working.  The isolation that we're all practicing is actually what's going to protect us from the virus.

Jacqueline:  One of the things that I've always loved about the Two of Swords - maybe it's me, but it always seems to echo the stereotypical image of Judgement with the blindfold and the two different items.

Allison:  Do you mean Justice?

Jacqueline:  Yes, sorry. Justice, Lady Justice. That one. They are similar in dress, similar in being visually removed in order to see more

Allison:   I think all the Major Arcanas have a reflection in the Minors and the Two of Swords is definitely a reflection of Justice, with the blindfold, with the swords, that it's definitely a link there. One of the names for this card is Peace, and another name is Truce. Truce and peace are a connection with Justice, because ultimately Justice is about bringing peace.

Jacqueline:  I suppose, if we wanted to go more into applying this card to current things going on at the moment, one of the things that I've found a lot on social media is the sheer amount of information going around. It doesn't even just need to apply to the events going on now. Whenever any kind of major event, or even an event that's going on in your life, there's always so much information going around.

I think that it's very important that this particular figure is blindfolded. The blindfold refers to one of our paranormal experiments called the Ganzfield experiment which is a sensory deprivation experiment. The idea is that we take away a person's hearing and sight in order for them to focus on what they sense and what they feel. It's more intuitive. So, the fact that she's blindfolded as well, especially with the amount of, I don't want to really want to say the fake news tag, going around on social media, but the idea of discerning, or not accepting everything that you see, as fact.

Allison:  Yes, discernment is part of Justice. To meet out Justice, you have to be able to discern what's real and what's not. All the swords have that aspect to them. Discernment used or discernment not used is certainly is a the Swords cards. One thing that always strikes me about this card is because, as I mentioned before, instead of looking at the King of Swords as a man, and the Queen of Swords as a woman, it's more about energy. So, the cards that are male, or have a male presenting figure, it's more about action taken out in the world. Action to change something, action to bring about something, or action to stop something.
                           
Whereas the female presenting figures, all the female figures, even the Empress or the High Priestess, can still represent a man, because it's about energy. So those energies are more internally focused. It's dreams, intuition, psychic knowing, healing that comes from the emotions, creativity, so that they're not, "Men are like this, and women are like that."

We have all of these things within us. What has always struck me about this card is that it is a very female, in terms of energy, card. Right? We've got the night, which is female. The moon is female, or it's energy that's receptive. The moon doesn't have any light of its own. It just reflects the light of the sun. So, it's about things that are receptive, things that take things in.

Like water. The ocean takes things into it. It doesn't so much spit things out. It's takes things in, and nurtures them. The going inwards is that female, receptive, internal, energy. The thing about those swords in this card is that it's transient because you're only going to be able to hold up those swords for so long. You're going to have to put them down at some point. So, this is about pause and rest. This is reflecting, before you take the next step, or before the next thing arises, because who the hell knows what tomorrow was going to bring?

These are extraordinary times. We have no idea what tomorrow's going to bring, and I feel like that the medicine, if you like, of the Two of Swords, is to rest, is to go within, is to find your strength, and peace within. So, you don't actually have to do anything. You just have to rest, and be as peaceful as you can, given whatever's happening around you, or happening to you.

I mean, if you've lost your job or something, all this awful stuff that's happening to people... I don't want to tell anyone what to do, or how to use it this time, but if you are looking to the cards for a suggestion of what to do, or how you can help yourself, this card is saying, it's rest. It's regeneration, it's discernment. Discerning what's good to put your energy into and what's not good to put your energy into. What's going to bring you the most peace of mind, but also peace of heart. Right? Because, we want both of those things.

Jacqueline:  Mm-hmm (affirmative). Talking about the idea of this only lasting for a specific amount of time. That's one of the things that hit me with the moon, as well. The idea of them using the moon. The moon, in this particular image is the new moon which is linked with the idea of transitioning. So, it's a phase. “This too shall pass”.

I guess it's comforting in that this is something that's happening now, but it's not always going to be this way. But, on the other hand, it also implies a time limit, in that you've got a certain amount of time to do something in order for you to find out what it is, what you're resting for. Be prepared for what's going to happen after this period of rest, as well.

Allison: Yes, that makes a lot of sense. One of the things with the TarotCraft system of reading the cards is that we look at each card as having an inherent Invitation, Gift and Challenge. So, the Invitation of the Two of Swords, is that you are invited to step into an initiation. This is the beginning of a life changing situation, or relationship, that will create deep, and lasting, inner change.

 I think the initiation is really important because in terms of whole COVID-19 thing for most of the world, we are still in the initiatory stages of it. We haven't hit peaks yet. New York hasn't. New York has more deaths now than Italy, who had more than China, but New York hasn't hit its peak yet. Here in Australia, we certainly haven't. We’re maybe six weeks away from our peak.

So, we are still in the initiatory stages, and to initiate means to begin. So, we are still in the beginning phases of what's going on. The virus itself is like the Tower. Right? It is such vast, widespread, specific change. When I say widespread yet specific, it's affecting every single person in the world, And when the Tower sweeps through, it's like a fire, and it burns everything away. Things are going to be changed to a point where nothing will go back to the way that it was especially in terms of people's emotions and people's psyches. There's going to be huge loss of life. It's going to have a terrible impact on generations to come.
                           
It's going to be very traumatic. There'll be intergenerational trauma especially for people in refugee camps and places like that. It's going to go through places like that like a dose of salts. And anybody who's over 50 is probably reminded of the AIDS epidemic, and if you're gay or queer, you're probably being re-traumatized by what's happening, at the moment.
                           
This terrible virus that first everyone said, "Oh, it's just old people." Like, “just” old people. The way that people used to say, "Oh, it's just gay people." Every life is precious. It doesn't matter that you're an old person. My parents are old. I don't want them to die. So this is... I think the Two of Swords is the response for many of us. A response that could help us to deal with this Tower of change, the Tower of violet change, that's kind of being inflicted on everybody at the moment.

Jacqueline:  This is why I love Tarot. That's not something that I had considered before. I'm going to have to think about this after this, and I hope everybody else does, who's listening, as well. It's something that definitely requires a lot more thought, I think.

Allison: The Tarot has changed a lot for me, just in the last couple of weeks. I look at the cards differently now. We are all collectively living through an extraordinary Tower experience.  In the Minor Arcana, we've got cards, like the Four of Pentacles and the Nine of Cups, and when you look at those cards, now, to me, they look like people who are hoarding. People who are hoarding resources.

Jacqueline:  Are they're hoarding paper?

Allison:  You could replace those Pentacles and those Cups with toilet paper. What an irrational response to what's going on. So to me, the Four of Swords and sorry, the Four of Cups, and the Nine of Pentacles, it's like they're going to have a reversed meaning for me that talks about that, irrational hoarding, or things adjacent. A lot of cards for me have a new layer of meaning. Because that's the thing with Tarot, right? You go through your life, and have all your experiences, and then your experiences are reflected back to you through the cards.

Jacqueline:  We're always going to be the best tool at which to interpret the cards and the cards, no matter what they show, are going to... We're the tool that interprets it, interprets them. It's us.

Allison: Yes, and that's why any Tarot reader is going to have a little bit of a different slant on the cards, because of their own life, and their own... As they see in their own life, reflected back at them in the cards, because the spirits or the universe, whatever it is, will use anything in your life to help you try and communicate, to interpret the cards so you can communicate them to another person in the way that they can understand.   So, in the future, when I talk about the Tower card, I'm going to be able to say to people, "Remember 2020? It's coming through your life," if the Tower card comes up.

Jacqueline: You can just replace the Tower card in some people's decks with just the numbers, 2020.

Allison:    Yes.

Jacqueline: What's that card? Oh, it's the Tower.

Allison:  Yes, that's it. That's what we call the Tower from now on. Just 2020.

Jacqueline:  Yes

Allison:  I'll just finish off with the Gift of the Two of Swords. Now, the Gift is that you can now see things as they are instead of being blinded or distracted by what people want you to see. Your inner knowing perceives the truth. See? We come again to discernment. So, I think a lot of people, the gift that people may come out of this with, is the gift of discernment, and a gift of trusting. Trusting in themselves, being able to tell truth from false, or things that will help them, from things that will hurt them.

So, I think, as you said, discernment is a big part of this card, and I think that that's one of the big gifts that people will come to realize, as time goes on, because it's going to take people a long time to heal from what's going on.  Some people will take longer than others when they've lost loved ones, lost jobs, lost homes, and all those terrible things. So, I guess, to sum up the message of this card for these times, it's to rest. Don't feel you've got to do anything, that you've got to be out there doing anything constructive. It's okay to sit on your couch, and eat chips in your pajamas. It's rest. Rest and know that you'll come out of this with the gift of discernment, and a better relationship with yourself, I think.

Jacqueline:  Yes, a bit more inner clarity, and probably inner strengths, as well.

Allison:  Yes, I think people are going to be surprised as to how strong they really are.

Jacqueline:  Yes, I think I've left my apartment three times this week, and the longest amount of time that I spent in the sun, was this afternoon. It wears on you. I think, hopefully a lot of people are in a similar position where they're discovering that it's okay to be alone.

 It's okay to be alone with your thoughts, and it can be quite scary. I have quite a few friends, and probably a lot of other people right now, having troubles with mental illness, or just generalized anxiety from people who have never experienced anxiety before. So, I think for me, the card speaks about not just the discernment, it also speaks about strengths, as well. Strength in yourself, strength in aloneness, I guess. Strength in oneness, not really aloneness. More oneness.

Allison: The classic card of one, or the individual, is the Fool. Right? The Fool card is completely focused on itself. It's like a newborn baby. Right? They're not really aware of separation. Everything is just... It's about me. I'm the important thing. I'm the only thing that matters. I'm the only thing that's real.

Then, when you get to the Two, you start to have some separation. You start to see that perhaps you're able to separate yourself a bit from your thoughts. So, you are not your thoughts. There's you, and there's your thoughts. Right? So, there's a duality there. So, having that sense of two things like, "I am not my thoughts. I might think my thoughts, but they are not my thoughts. I might feel anxious, but I'm not my anxiety."

I think that that's the strength of the Swords, is that you can have that discernment, and you can create that separation, and also show that you are already defined. You've got two swords, and you're ready to fight, if you need. Right? But, I think that the Two in this case, it's very much about separating yourself from your thoughts. You're not, regardless of what's happening in your head with your mental wellbeing, your emotional wellbeing, everything that happens inside your head, your thoughts, to your worries, your fears, you are actually separate to them. You can practice thinking, "Okay, I can see that I'm having thoughts about anxiety, but I'm not anxiety."

 I don't want to tell anyone what to do. I'm not a shrink, or any kind of therapist. But, it is an awareness. You have yourself, and then you have this sort of mental processes that you go through, and they are separate. Does that make sense?

Jacqueline: It does. It's almost touching on this existential kind of idea of yourself "Who am... What am I," kind of thing. This seems a meditative card. It implies meditation, and who were some of the most famous meditators in history? People who have dedicated themselves to the destruction of the ego, to the examination of self.

Allison: Well, yes, death of the ego. A lot of people are going to be going through that kind of transformation. Death of the ego, while they go through this, spending months and months and months where you can't do all the things that you would normally get your, I don't know, people who get their social status in various ways, or whatever.

This is a bit of a leveler. We've all got to stay at home. If you're a person who gets your self-esteem from getting your hair done, having your nails done, and things like that, which is fine. I'm not saying that's a bad thing. It's well, they're externals. So, when you can't turn to your externals for the things that make you feel good...

Jacqueline: You turn to your internals.

Allison:   Yes, and that can be uncomfortable. I mean, I've got no answers about this. This is just thoughts. But, when we can't turn to externals, we have to turn to internals, and try and make friends with it.

Jacqueline:  Mm-hmm (affirmative). But, it's okay because you've got swords.

Allison:  That's it.

Jacqueline: A sword in each hand.

Allison:  Well yes, and again, the swords of Discernment. What's really important, and what really matters, and I think that that's a shift that a lot of people will find themselves making on this journey is …these things really matter, and those things really don't. I think that can only be good for people, individuals, for families, to work out what's really important and, you know what? At the end of the day, making millions of dollars isn't important. Having good relationships with your family, and yourself, is what's really important.

Jacqueline:   Clarity and discernment.

Allison:  Yes. All right. Well, I think that sounds like a good note to leave things on. Thank you so much for coming in to talk to me about Two of Swords.

Jacqueline:  It has been an absolute pleasure, a wonderful introspection, and incredibly thoughtful. I'm going to probably going to go spend a fair amount of time with my cards, after this.

Allison:  Me, too. Because I've been looking at these same cards, since the mid 80’s, and I still see more and more in them. Like I said, you could talk for three hours about it, and it gets a bit repetitive and talking around in circles. But, it's just so interesting, and it's like the more you look at them, the more there is, and the more there is to talk about, the more there is to learn, and more there is to think about.  So, yes, I'm very grateful to Tarot, everything that it's given me in my life, and all the people that it connects me with. Thank you so much. It’s Saturday here, so enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Jacqueline:  Yes, I shall.

Allison: Okay. See you soon. Thank you.
 
Thank you for joining me on the TarotCraft podcast. This is Allison Jean and you can find me at Tarotcraft.com, on the TarotCraft facebook page, and you can also join the private group, TarotCraft Group.
 
Transcription ends
 
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